Planned
Last Updated: 30 Apr 2021 13:23 by ADMIN
Scheduled for 3.0.0
Peter
Created on: 31 Jan 2020 16:07
Category: UI for Blazor
Type: Feature Request
42
Make source code available to paid licence holders

Please make the source code available to people with paid licences.

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ADMIN EDIT

The source code for UI for Blazor will become available. Click the Follow button on the upper left hand side to get a notification email when that happens, and click the Vote button to add your vote for it if you need it.

The current plan is to make the source code available to commercial license holders in November 2021.

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22 comments
Paul
Posted on: 07 Mar 2021 22:55

Dimo, I can see why you would want your customers to regard those two points as "the important information".

For those who don't appreciate ongoing efforts by Progress to distract their customers with such disingenuous messaging, I offer the actual key takeaways for affected developers:

  • Progress has invited customers into their ecosystem for years under the pretense that they would always have access to product source code.
  • Progress has failed to explain, in concrete terms, their decision to withhold this critical resource for Telerik.Blazor customers (statements like "product, technology, and market considerations" obviously have no meaning).
  • While withholding source code from their customers, Progress and their distributors continued to publish misleading marketing materials on the Web, failing to disclose this omission to prospective customers.
  • While Progress deprives its customers of this crucial resource, amazing high-quality open-source Blazor component libraries with vibrant communities are appearing every day.
  • With each passing day, the mishandling of this situation by Progress, along with the rise of free alternative frameworks for Blazor, will result in a steeper nosedive in renewals by the developers Progress has betrayed.

Thanks!

 

ADMIN
Dimo
Posted on: 04 Mar 2021 15:47

Hello everyone,

I can see why this discussion heats up, but I am also concerned that a single thread cannot effectively address feedback about different topics and different products. Let me use Maria's post as a base and recap the important information:

  • We will provide the UI for Blazor source code to all customers in November 2021.
  • Product-specific, technology and market considerations play a role in our decision to postpone the source code release. I confirm that we have evaluated all the pros and cons - we are developers too.

Paul, Arthur, Peter, James - I appreciate your inputs here, as they reflect your customer experience. I assure you that matters and we pay attention.

I invite everyone who would like to present their point of view and concerns in more detail, to get in touch with us via the support system, so that we can organize a call. We already met with Arthur's company and discussed multiple topics, including this one. My impressions are very positive - there is nothing better than a live conversation to gain excellent understanding of one's use case and priorities, build a relationship and facilitate productive cooperation.

Regards,
Dimo
Support lead at Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

Paul
Posted on: 25 Feb 2021 16:20

@SturmA, you're really expecting a bug fix within 20 days?

It takes them longer than that to post a message to the voting system to determine if other developers feel your bug is important enough for them to even acknowledge.

Many of us have been waiting over a year for Progress to address some of the most egregious defects in this framework.

Again, we need to adjust our expectations. Historically we have dealt with a company called Telerik. That company no longer exists.

SturmA
Posted on: 25 Feb 2021 10:47

https://github.com/telerik/kendo-ui-core/issues/6277

Hello Marin,
hello Maria

you told us how good the telerik supoort is.

Why it takes so long to copy past a small snippet like this into your build system  : 

        /// <summary>
        /// Provides additional view data in the editor template for that event (if any)..
        /// </summary>
        /// <param name="additionalViewData">The AdditionalViewData of the EditorTemplate</param>
        public SchedulerEditableSettingsBuilder<T> AdditionalViewData(object additionalViewData)
        {
            container.AdditionalViewData = additionalViewData;

            return this;
        }

10 lines of code should copy paste into the file SchedulerEditableSettingsBuilder.cs in your source code, i ask me why it takes so long ?
Without access to the source code it's not possible to maintain a project for us.

I opened the ticket at February 5, 2021.

Today i update to 2021.1.224 and really the patch is not included ?

You tell us something about great support and fast support and that we don't need access to the source code because if there is a problem and you open a ticket you get a solution quickly. As in many other cases, I do not see this and I would like to have your opinion. It's a small bug that can be fixed very quickly and I even included the corrected source code in the support ticket the only doing is copy past, so I say the support from Telerik very bad, please prove the opposite to me.

Regards
Arthur

ADMIN
Marin Bratanov
Posted on: 18 Feb 2021 12:33

I have updated the opener post with the current plan - November 2021. I have also updated the status of this item to Planned to denote this intention.

If someone interested in this has not clicked the Follow button, please do so to get status updates.

 

Regards,
Marin Bratanov
Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

Paul
Posted on: 17 Feb 2021 17:40
The discomfort that Peter and others are feeling can be explained very simply -- this is not a Telerik product, it is a Progress product. Withholding source code for Telerik.Blazor represents this latest in an increasingly alarming series of abdications of Telerik's traditional role as the "developer-focused" component vendor. Maria's comment, in which she claimed to seek to "provide clarity" and "visibility" obviously provided neither (maybe November, maybe not), a sleight of hand immediately obvious to anyone whose career hinges on these decisions. In private communication with Marin, I have cited multiple examples of Progress failing to disclose omission of Telerik.Blazor source code in their marketing materials and those of their distributors. Despite this, Progress' legal counsel is working under the deranged theory that they're not liable for false advertising claims. It's difficult for me to see a path to redemption for this once-legendary organization.
Peter
Posted on: 17 Feb 2021 08:45

It's very simple to read the source code with a decompiler anyway, so this delay can only be about admin and/or legal issues. 

If Telerik already supply source for other products then neither of those factors should be an obstacle.

This should be possible to achieve within a week.  Peopplle can then have their own bug fixes until official fixes are released.

There isn't any logical reason I can see that this has to wait until .NET 6 is released on account that Blazor source is changing.  When 6 is released,  it will start changing again.

It has now been almost 13 months since this request was filed. That is bad enough,  but to get an official response after a year saying it will be a total of at least 22 months before anything is done is incredibly bad.

I think the Telerik product for Blazor is fantastic, but the way this part of the business is being run is very shoddy.  I feel sadness and guilt saying that in public,  but it is unfortunately very true :(

Please fix it.

 

SturmA
Posted on: 16 Feb 2021 13:29

Thank you very much Maria, you do a very good job.

Now we have a time frame to plan.

For me the the information that it will be released this year is enough.

But Maria the question from Peter is also very good.

I would have liked to answer them too.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the competition does not have access to the source code either?

Peter
Posted on: 16 Feb 2021 12:54
Blazor source code will always be changing.  Why does this stop Telerik from releasing source code for components already released?
ADMIN
Maria Veledinova
Posted on: 16 Feb 2021 10:07

Hi Everyone,

My name is Maria Veledinova and I am the Product Manager for Telerik UI for Blazor.

Let me join the conversation and provide clarity on the product decision to distribute Telerik UI for Blazor components without the respective source code for the time being.

I am sorry to see the thread has lost the typical constructive tone of our feedback portal. We understand your need for using source code for learning and customization purposes and we would gladly ship it at later point in time when both the framework and the product allow to do so in a smooth and stable way.

Blazor as framework is maturing and constantly evolving with regular updates for .NET 5 and now with .NET 6 preview versions -introducing new features, improvements as well as causing breaking changes. In addition to that Telerik UI for Blazor provides new updates and releases every six weeks - both in terms of new components, adding/ updating features, fixes, and improvements, and inherently introducing changes coming from the Blazor framework. These dynamics along with other market factors are causing us as vendor to make the decision to put on hold the shipping of our source code until conditions change.

We are looking at the possibility to provide source code to our active users with the official release of .NET 6 later this year in November. Once the decision is confirmed it will be announced in the product roadmap page and feedback portal - the current thread will be updated and everyone that follows it will receive notification.

Hopefully this update provides visibility and reassure your trust in us as a partner. 

Kind Regards, Maria VeledinovaPM at Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

Paul
Posted on: 13 Feb 2021 18:47

Let's please keep this dialog productive. Marin's objective is to help ensure that we enjoy a positive development experience using Progress tools and frameworks. He is definitely not the one making the decisions on this matter.

Any feelings of betrayal by Progress stemming from this issue should be addressed by your freedom of decision in the component marketplace.

The lack of source code for Telerik.Blazor has been devastating for me. After more than a decade of dedication to this organization, including countless referrals, when I went to reach for the source code, it wasn't there .. and I lost customers as a result. The effect was felt not just by myself, but my family as well. Researching alternative frameworks and rewriting volumes of code in a massive migration effort was the last thing I wanted to deal with during a global pandemic, but I had no choice.

But thinking back, I am grateful for Telerik's past dedication to their other frameworks, in which source code availability gave me a huge advantage. Particularly with UI for WPF, the source allowed me to provide a level of service to my customers that helped me secure a number of important contracts.

Bottom line, do not attack Marin on this issue. If he could provide us with source code, he would. Instead, politely voice your concern, then do what others in our position have done and simply pivot to other frameworks. This is an exciting time for Blazor, and component vendors are doing some amazing things. Check it out, you might be surprised.

ADMIN
Marin Bratanov
Posted on: 13 Feb 2021 13:46

Hello,

I will try to address each point you have raised in turn:

Your support and documentation is very bad, slow and have a poor quality !!!

I am truly sorry to see you say that. I you have particular suggestions on improvements, I'd be happy to discuss them with you (just not in this thread, so we can keep it on point). Feel free to open a new ticket about that.

Without this option, we have to look for a better alternative for Blazor and then we will no longer be able to be a customer in the long term.

The source code for UI for Blazor will become available.

You should click the Follow button on this page to know when. As soon as I know it, this page will be updated, and you would then receive an email to notify you.

I would be very sorry to see you go, yet it is your prerogative to choose the tools and partners you work with. If you need assistance with our components, you need but ask.

tell us only the release date after on year.

When the release is known this page will be updated immediately. There is no other way to know that, and asking me repeatedly will not produce a different answer a few days later.

I also checked your support history and I see that you have asked about the blazor source code and I added your vote exactly one month ago, not a year. Your other question for UI for Blazor was from August about conditional classes for the grid rows and columns (which is available since October, by the way).

In conclusion

I would ask that we keep any discussion here to the point, productive and free of personal attacks, misinformation and bullying.

Regards,
Marin Bratanov
Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

SturmA
Posted on: 13 Feb 2021 13:24

Hi Marin,

here my reason why i only migrate to blazor with source code avallable !!!

Your support and documentation is very bad, slow and have a poor quality !!!

So that having the source code can be useful is absolutly wrong, it is absolutely necessary.

The fact that the source code is available for me was clearly the decision to opt for telerik, this more than eliminates the problems with documentation and support. It's fantastic that you can just see what the problem is.
Without this option, we have to look for a better alternative for Blazor and then we will no longer be able to be a customer in the long term.

I have many support tickets with the answer from telerik "It's not a bug its a missing feature !!!"

Actually i can fix such bug/missing features just in time by myself if nessessary and i share the bugfix with telerik but without source code i have a very big problem.

And please don't make a cheap excuse or escape or avoid the bush, tell us only the release date after on year.

I use the Blazor components actually only for the teams client, so no need to migrate to blazor in the next 3 month,
but it would be fair to answer the question after a year.

P.S: Marin you are aware that I triggered the feature request a year ago and you answered James first.
And telerik need over one year for a answer, here you can see
the integrity, speed and quality of the telerik support !!!

Regards

Arthur

 

ADMIN
Marin Bratanov
Posted on: 12 Feb 2021 08:41

Hi Paul,

I would say that things that differentiate our offering includes its overall quality, resources such as documentation, demos and examples, support service and our comprehensive offering across platforms and stacks.

Nevertheless, I agree that having the source code can be useful and this is why we intend to provide it for UI for Blazor as well.

Regards,
Marin Bratanov
Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

Paul
Posted on: 12 Feb 2021 08:38

Marin, your concern as to the viability of our respective approaches to maintaining custom builds is appreciated, but distracts from the main point, which is that source code availability has been a cornerstone of the Telerik ecosystem since the beginning of time. It has been your primary differentiator in the component marketplace. Those who rely on access to source code have figured out how to leverage it.

"OSS" has nothing to do with this and should not be part of the conversation. Nobody is suggesting that open source enter into this equation, the concept is completely irrelevant.

Ultimately Marin, the way to understand this is that your customers have customers. So if my customer is demanding that I address a defect in the framework -- or my ability to secure a customer hinges on my ability to address such a defect -- it's not reasonable to have to wait for months or years while other users vote on the importance of the defect to determine if Progress should fix it. Not when we've aligned ourselves with Progress specifically to avoid that scenario. We're here because we depend on source code availability, it really is that simple.

ADMIN
Marin Bratanov
Posted on: 12 Feb 2021 08:25

Hi Paul and others who mention bug fixes in custom builds,

Considering we release new versions roughly every six weeks, maintaining custom builds is not likely to be a very viable option, even assuming they are feasible or easy in the first place. Thus, even with the source code, I am not sure creating custom builds would be a maintainable option. Is this your intention - to apply changes every few weeks and to create custom builds (that, I must note, we do not support)? An important factor here is that we support the latest only version (more here).

I am asking because I want to understand the pressing need for the source code, considering I see relatively little value that it can add. For example, I do not really see how it can help with migrating from Razor Pages. Since I am, probably missing something, I want to understand.

At the same time, we provide technical support as part of your license which is something you can rarely get from OSS.

On the status of the item - "Unplanned" means that we don't know yet in which release it will be included, but we have agreed that it is a meaningful request that can enhance the suite. You can read more on the statuses and their meaning here. When we know the release that will have this enhancement, the portal page will be updated to show it and if you had clicked the Follow button, you will get an email with the news.

Regards,
Marin Bratanov
Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

Paul
Posted on: 11 Feb 2021 19:07
While it's encouraging to finally see a public commitment by Progress to address this painful void (more than a year after the request was logged), I'm sure your customers would like to know the time frame. The inconsistency between Marin's remark ("will be available") and the status of this request ("unplanned") makes this framework a risky choice -- particularly for long-time Telerik customers that have aligned with and supported Progress specifically because paid license holders have always, until now, enjoyed access to product source code. Like SturmA and James Lett, I have been forced to put Telerik.Blazor aside and invest in more viable frameworks that can be patched as needed.
ADMIN
Marin Bratanov
Posted on: 11 Feb 2021 17:11

Hello,

The source code for Telerik UI for Blazor has not yet been available. It will be available in the future to commercial license holders, like the source code of other component suites we have. It is unlikely, at least for the foreseeable future, that UI for Blazor will be open-source, however.

If I am misunderstanding the question please let me know.

Whether you choose to go for open-source software or not is a decision that is the prerogative of the application developer. In the same fashion, the framework and other tools you choose to build your applications will be determined by many factors - such as project requirements, client preferences, personal experience and so on. So, I am not in a position to advise you on that subject and you are completely free to choose the best tools for the concrete task you have.

 

Regards,
Marin Bratanov
Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

SturmA
Posted on: 11 Feb 2021 15:00

So i understand, that the source code will not available in the past ?

Should we look for an other contract with a open source provider like Avalonia UI Framework or Uno Platform ?

 

ADMIN
Marin Bratanov
Posted on: 11 Feb 2021 07:35

Hello James,

I am sorry that you are having a hard time with the migration. An approach I've seen successful with many people is to migrate an entire page to blazor at once - this helps you create several reusable components from the get-go by looking at a relatively big picture, so you can then reuse them on the next pages, and also means less worry about mixing the two stacks on the same page.

As for places where the documentation is unclear - please open a ticket so we can discuss such issues. This will let us explain so you can move forward, and also improve the docs.

Regards,
Marin Bratanov
Progress Telerik

Virtual Classroom, the free self-paced technical training that gets you up to speed with Telerik and Kendo UI products quickly just got a fresh new look + new and improved content including a brand new Blazor course! Check it out at https://learn.telerik.com/.

James Lett
Posted on: 11 Feb 2021 03:08
It's certainly proving to be very difficult for us to migrate from ASP.NET Core to Blazor as well.  There are some bugs we can't wait to be fixed by Progress Telerik, and in other instances we need to see the source code to understand functionality (where documentation is not clear) to get the desired behavior from the components.  As CTO I may have to now switch our development teams to an alternate provider.
SturmA
Posted on: 13 Jan 2021 10:30
Without the source for us it's not possible to migrate from asp.net core to blazor !!!